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The Strength Running Podcast

Coach Jason Fitzgerald shares running advice for new and veteran runners who are passionate about getting stronger, preventing running injuries, and racing faster. Featuring guests like Olympians Nick Symmonds and Shalane Flanagan, best-selling authors Alex Hutchinson and Matt Fitzgerald, and other Physical Therapists, Sports Psychologists, and Coaches. You’ll learn what it takes to run fast, stay healthy, and become a better runner with practical no-nonsense advice.
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Aug 20, 2019

What you’re about to listen to is a coaching call where we talk about Riley’s running background, the types of training he has experience with, and how he can structure the next 4 months of his running to not only finish his first half, but also race it well.

Riley is a member of Team Strength Running, the most affordable virtual coaching group you can join. These behind the scenes coaching call opportunities are only available to team members so if you’d like to learn more about the team, just sign up and I’ll send you more details. I think you’re really going to like it.

Riley and I are also going to talk about the enviable position he’s in right now (you’ll notice how excited I am for Riley because of where he’s at in his life), the types of long runs and workouts that work great for the half marathon, and the obstacles he must avoid this fall if he’s going to stay healthy and run his first marathon.

Aug 12, 2019

Us distance runners are used to metering out our effort, cautiously sipping fuel to conserve energy, and waiting for the perfect moment to strike.

We're creatures of patience, willing to grind for miles and execute a well-planned pacing strategy over the course of a race.

But none of that happens in the 800m.

In the half mile - possibly the "perfect" middle distance event - caution and patience are liabilities. Sipping fuel would be competitive suicide; blasting the after-burners is the only way to race it.

And such a fast, aggressive race demands training that's very different from what distance runners are used to.

In fact, 800m training looks like a blend of sprint and distance work: long runs and speed training, traditional track workouts with more strides, drills, and top-end speed reps.

During my track days, I certainly didn't do any 800m training. But I raced a lot of 800's in a few situations:

  • As a second race during a track meet (the 1500m / 800m double is particularly taxing)
  • At the end of a season if you haven't qualified for the championship meets
  • During a 4x800m relay (putting four distance runners in a relay and watching them struggle with a mid-distance race is especially hilarious)

And while I'm firmly a distance runner (and distance coach), I love the 800m race. It's a beautiful expression of speed.

So I brought a middle-distance coach on the podcast to discuss this distance, 800m training, and how adult runners can get started with shorter, faster races.

Please welcome Tom Brumlik to the Strength Running Podcast (this is an excerpt from Team Strength Running).

Tom is an 800m specialist coach for the District Track Club in Washington, DC. He used to hold the General Manager role as well but is now working exclusively in a coaching capacity.

The DTC was started (and is still directed) by Matt Centrowitz, Sr. (father to Olympic Gold Medalist Matt Centrowitz) and features a range of elite middle distance runners.

Tom is on the podcast today to discuss how an elite running club like the DTC works (its funding, how it recruits members, and its origin) and the intricacies of 800m training.

He'll be answering questions like:

  • What kind of mileage levels do 800m runners run?
  • How long do these mid-distance runners go for their long runs?
  • What speed development workouts are required for 800m training?
  • Do runners from sprint or endurance backgrounds fair better in the 800?

We also discuss how to find all-comers track meets (there needs to be more of these!) so you can test yourself at the 800m distance.

Aug 8, 2019

Katy Sherratt joins us on the podcast today to discuss the mission of Back on My Feet and the power of running to combat homelessness.

And it is quite powerful! The organization has helped more than 7,000 and every dollar invested into Back on My Feet returns $2.50 to the local community. Talk about a positive return on investment!

In this conversation, we're discussing:

  • Why she initially chose to work at Back on My Feet
  • What lessons she's learned from using running to combat homelessness
  • How running works so well as a platform for self-improvement
  • The power of community to help members escape homelessness
  • Her history as a runner and what the organization is doing next

Getting up at 5:30 in the morning to run requires commitment. And for those who can commit, they'll be rewarded with a supportive community, housing and employment resources, and other tools that will help them achieve more of their goals - both on and off the road.

Jul 25, 2019

After 100 episodes of the Strength Running Podcast, Jason announced a survey to get your feedback.

What format episode is your favorite? Do you prefer longer or shorter episodes? What would you like to see MORE of? And of course, what can be improved?

After analyzing hundreds of responses, there are some clear trends on what you like and would like to see in this podcast.

In this episode, Jason talks through the main takeaways from the survey and what changes to expect in the podcast.

The survey is still up so if you would like to add your voice, please do so! Visit strengthrunning.com/survey/ to give us your feedback.

Jul 17, 2019

Matt Phillips is a running injury and performance specialist from England who's written for most major media platforms and has spoken at numerous international conferences. You might recognize him!

He's a massage therapist, video gait analyst, and is also the host of the Run Chat Live Podcast (I was recently a guest here!).

In this conversation, we're covering a lot:

  • When is gait retraining a good idea? Who should consider it?
  • What are the risks of trying to improve your form?
  • Are the risks of prolonged sitting substantial? How can we work around this?
  • Can you reinforce proper running technique without trying to?
  • What aspects of this topic have changed in the last 10 years?

If you'd like to reinforce proper form, improve your efficiency, and make running more economical you can do so using "form cues." They are simple to implement ways of automatically improving your gait.

See my three favorite form cues here.

Jul 11, 2019

Menachem Brodie is an exercise scientist, USA Cycling Expert level coach and USA Triathlon certified coach, and a graduate of an American College of Sports Medicine Accredited program with a bachelors in Exercise Physiology.

He also has experience working in physical therapy, Emergency Medicine, and even with sports like basketball and CrossFit.

By now, you've noticed that I love speaking with guests on the podcast with a wide diversity of experiences. And Menachem clearly fits the mold.

Today, we're discussing strength training for endurance runners.

More specifically, we're focusing on:

  • The value of having a strength and conditioning certification (but why experience also matters)
  • Strength work for rehabilitation vs. performance
  • The lifting differences between endurance runners and cyclists
  • How to think about strength training periodization
  • Thoughts on fitness classes like Orange Theory, boot camp, Body Pump, etc.

As the author of two strength training courses offered on the Training Peaks site, Menachem is uniquely positioned to offer us new perspectives on weightlifting for runners.

Jun 24, 2019

Alexandra Ellis is a polymath, having studied and worked in many different areas of exercise science, fitness, and coaching.

She has a degree in Exercise Biology and has amassed nearly 1,000 hours of yoga training. Alex also has additional education in:

  • Human Dissection (of course, this was the first thing we talked about)
  • CrossFit Mobility
  • Movement education with Sarah Court, DPT
  • Regeneration Techniques workshop completion through NSCA

As you can see, she has experiences that most coaches would envy (human dissection and NSCA training in particular).

And I'm always looking for new perspectives that will help us improve our running. Alex delivers in a fun episode that highlights her knowledge about the body, movement, recovery, and injuries.

In this conversation, we discuss:

  • What did she learn from dissecting human cadavers?
  • The physiological, biomechanical, and behavioral aspects of her Exercise Biology degree
  • What she learned from CrossFit Mobility that will help runners
  • How to incorporate a daily mobility practice into your life
  • The pros and cons of different massage tools (foam rollers, lacrosse balls, and even Graston tools)
  • How to prevent and treat rolled ankles
  • What she means when she says, "If stretching ain't helping, start building strength."

To celebrate our 100th episode, I invite you to take a short (3-question) survey to help us make it better. I really appreciate it.

Jun 18, 2019

Today's episode is about recovery, and specifically recovery through three different perspectives: acute recovery - or what you do immediately after a hard workout or race, recovery as preparation - or what you do in training that makes recovery easier, and finally long-term recovery from season to season so you can avoid over-training and burning out.

It’s helpful to talk about recovery from different perspectives but also different time scales. Because recovery can happen in the micro and in the macro.

And I think this is really important because we runners tend to get caught up in this one dimensional form of thinking about recovery where we’re only focused on recovery after a run. It’s what we do after a race, or long run, or workout, that defines recovery.

But recovery is bigger than that and we’ll be better runners if recovery is more 3-dimensional.

Don't miss our free foam roller guide to expedite the recovery process at https://strengthrunning.com/roller/ 

Jun 6, 2019

Today's podcast episode features one of the lead coaches for Rogue Running, a massive running group in Austin, Texas.

After discovering the Running Rogue podcast and learning more about the group, I instantly recognized Chris McClung as a thoughtful coach who truly "gets" training (he's not going to tell you to run less, run faster...).

In this conversation, we focus on three key areas:

  • How he learned to be a great coach
  • The training theory and principles that influence his coaching
  • The role of community and how that impacts your performance

This episode is an excerpt from Team Strength Running, our group coaching program that connects you to me as your coach, a team of your peers, and a new monthly expert interview.

Sign up here to get notified the next time we open!

May 28, 2019

Borrowing an idea from our mutual friend Nicole Antoinette, Kate has decided to choose courage over comfort when it comes to showing up and racing.

When it comes to getting the most from our bodies, all of us have some trepidation about the discomfort of racing. It can be unpleasant and downright painful. But deciding to "go all in" and embrace that fear is the only way we can reach our potential.

It's not an easy choice. Comfort is far easier: the comfort of sleeping in, not signing up for that big race, or not pushing hard during the final mile.

But comfort can be the invisibility cloak that masks failure. After all, if we're only operating at 85%, are we really thriving?

Today's conversation with Kate Grace covers many areas of training and mastering your inner psychology:

  • How she handles workout anxiety and pre-race jitters
  • What she does to stay in control of her thoughts during demanding speed workouts
  • How she talks to herself in fearful situations (like standing on the starting line of a major championship)
May 20, 2019

You’re about to listen to Strength Running’s first live show with author Matt Fitzgerald. If you’re not familiar with Matt, he’s written more than 20 books about sports nutrition, endurance, running, and the marathon including my favorites, The Endurance Diet, Brain Training, Racing Weight, and Diet Cults.

This was recorded in front of a live audience at the Tattered Cover bookstore in Denver, Colorado.

Matt's latest book is a memoir called Life is a Marathon that chronicles his career as a coward when it comes to the suffering that inevitably accompanies endurance running. But he learns to overcome that suffering, and in doing so discovers the person he wants to become, for himself and for his wife Nataki who has severe bipolar disorder.

It’s a very different type of book about running that I highly recommend, especially if you want a moving read that isn’t heavy on training jargon.

May 9, 2019

I ran competitively against Peter while we were both in college. He was at Tufts University while I ran for Connecticut College.

Bromka was faster. In college, he was consistently a Varsity runner for their competitive Division III cross country team. But while he was a very good college runner, I wouldn't say he was a standout athlete.

Things started to change post-collegiately when Peter started running marathons. His first was 2:56 - a relatively pedestrian time by a former collegiate runner (one who was capable of running 25:xx for a 5-mile cross country course).

Soon, he dropped his time to 2:47. And then 2:41. His progression of improvement over 26.2 miles is eye-popping. After that 2:41, he ran:

  • 2:36
  • 2:34
  • 2:29
  • 2:23
  • 2:19

His fastest finish came last December at the 2018 California International Marathon. His official time - 2:19:40 - missed the Olympic Trials Qualifying standard by a mere 40 seconds.

This progression gives Peter Bromka one of the most fascinating stories in marathon running today. It's rare. It's unique. And we just don't see DIII runners flirting with Olympic Trials Qualifying times very often!

I brought Peter on the podcast to talk about this progression and the mental and physical adjustments he's had to make to continue improving.

In this episode, we talk about:

  • How did Peter's mindset about training and racing change as he got faster?
  • What role does fear play in how you think about breaking certain time barriers?
  • Did he ever think he had reached his physiological limit? What then?
  • What is it about the Boston Marathon that makes it so special (and difficult!)?

Peter Bromka is like a philosopher of running. You'll love hearing him wax poetic about the marathon distance and what it means to run it well.

May 2, 2019

Brad Stulberg is a polymath whose first book with coach Steve Magness, Peak Performancewas one of my favorite reads from 2018.

His work focuses on helping athletes, business executives, and other top performers improve their chances of success by work on:

  • Defining a path for long-term progression
  • Mental toughness
  • Developing sustainable motivation and purpose
  • How to get into a deep-focus "flow" state
  • Building resilience
  • Development of optimal routines

His latest book is also coauthored by Steve Magness, titled The Passion Paradox: A Guide to Going All In, Finding Success, and Discovering the Benefits of an Unbalanced Life.

In this conversation, we spend time focusing on the nuances of passion, obsession, and building interest in things that we like.

His book is a defense of passion. It's a more nuanced, effective perspective on passion that acknowledges that it's hard to find, that it must be cultivated, and that too much of it can indeed be a bad thing.

Apr 24, 2019

You might know Craig as the 2013 Pan-American Jr. Games 1500m champion or the 4th place finisher at the 2016 US Olympic Trials in the 1500m. More recently, Craig won the USATF indoor mile and set a blazing 3:53 mile PR.

His list of personal bests is eye-popping:

  • 800m: 1:46:03
  • Mile: 3:53.93
  • 5k: 14:20.27

Craig is a fun guy to talk with because he doesn’t take running too seriously. He’s a fierce competitor but you’ll also see how his running really took off in college when he was able to have fun with his team.

(it's funny how you perform better when you're having more fun outside of training...)

He also doesn’t take himself too seriously, which I find incredibly refreshing. He rocks a mullet and an absolutely perfect 1980’s style Burt Reynolds mustache. The RV only came after the mustache because he wanted to keep the 80's theme going.

In this wide-ranging conversation, Jason and Craig talk about how his career exploded in college, his affinity for running fast, and why your next breakthrough might require you to take running less seriously.

Apr 16, 2019

After college, Deena traveled to Amarosa, Colorado to train under Coach Joe Vigil. That's when her running took off.

To discover why and how this happened (it wasn't better training), Deena joined me on the Strength Running Podcast to discuss the mental journey she's taken throughout her career.

Our conversation focuses on several topics:

  • How to turn negative thoughts into positive thoughts - while running or in everyday life
  • Why Deena used to race "with fear" (and how she recovered from this dangerous mindset)
  • The mental expectations she's had to abandon to reach higher levels of performance
  • How to "participate in the process" rather than overly worry about results

These are all major themes of her award-winning memoir Let Your Mind Run: A Memoir of Thinking My Way to Victory.

Apr 3, 2019

You don’t have to just “hope” that your motivation to run will be there in the morning when the alarm blares…

But motivation is fickle and unpredictable. Some days, you’re ready to crush a track workout or long run. Other days, you can barely bring yourself to jog for 30 minutes.

You don’t have to be a hostage to the whims of your running motivation, though. Relying on motivation is a fool’s errand. 

Instead, you can structure your running life in such a way that missed runs or skipped workouts are virtually nonexistent.

You can do this without:

  • the latest productivity app
  • getting up at four in the morning every day
  • joining a convent or becoming a monk…
  • “biohacking” your way to the podium

I want to share with you a simple framework for automatically improving your running motivation and increasing the chances that you train hard – so you can race faster.

And it all starts with the other people in your life. Discover more about Strength Running's team.

Mar 28, 2019

Sanjay Rawal is a filmmaker, runner, and the man behind the documentary 3100: Run and Become.

Before becoming a filmmaker, he spent 15 years in over 40 countries working on human rights and international development. His new film is about the longest certified road race in the world: the Self-Transcendence 3100 Miler.

It's an event that boggles the mind: 3,100 miles around a single city block in Queens, New York for nearly two months in the heat of summer. To win, you have to average about 60 miles per day (for nearly two months).

A race like this is less of a race and more of a journey of self-discovery that reveals the limits of human ability.

In this wide-ranging discussion about the spiritual side of running, Sanjay Rawal and I discuss:

  • Why this race is more of a pilgrimage than a race
  • The mechanics of a 52-day, 3,100-mile race
  • What we can learn from traditional running cultures like the Navajo and Kalahari
  • How we can train our minds to be more resilient
  • What separates a runner who completes 3100 miles from the rest of us
  • How the mindset of a spiritual runner can improve your competitive goals
Mar 21, 2019

Meb's legacy is cemented as a world-class runner: he's the 2004 Olympic Marathon silver medalist, winner of the 2009 New York City Marathon and 2014 Boston Marathon, and 4-time Olympian.

He's also the author of three books guaranteed to get your competitive juices flowing:

Perhaps more impactful is his approach to the sport of distance running and the marathon. Free from any personal scandal, Meb is a true ambassador to running. In 2017, he was recognized as an 'Outstanding American by Choice' by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.

He's also run 26 marathons over the course of his decades long career. And anybody who has completed that many marathons at a world-class level has a lot to share.

In this conversation, Meb and I have a wide-ranging conversation about:

  • His childhood in Eritrea and how it prepared him for distance running
  • The surprises he learned when running his first marathon
  • Why cross-training is so valuable for him
  • How running has prepared him for setbacks in his personal life
  • When running is particularly hard for Meb

We also talk about his new book 26 Marathons and the many lessons he's learned from each of the 26 marathons he's run over the last two decades.

Finally, I ended our conversation with a simple question ahead of next month's Boston MarathonIf you could talk to the entire field at Boston as they lined up in Hopkinton, what advice would you have for them?

Mar 14, 2019

Don't be surprised if a Metcon workout includes:

  • Running
  • Cycling
  • Rowing
  • Gymnastic movements
  • Strength exercises
  • Any combination of these forms of exercise

They're put together to condition the metabolism. In other words, to enable you to work at a near maximum intensity for a prolonged period of time.

They sound very much like a running workout - like a challenging hill workout, for example.

But the crucial difference is that they don't have to include any running. And that makes them useful for runners who may not be ready for a hard workout (or who want a different, less-specific workout).

I've brought Dr. Mike Young onto the podcast to discuss metcon workouts for runners (and more topics) in more detail.

You can also sign up here for our free course on runner-specific strength training.

Mike Young, PhD is the Director of Research and Performance at Athletic Lab. A Lead Instructor for both USA Track & Field and USA Weightlifting, he also works with elite athletes and has consulted with the MLS, MLB, NFL, PGA, and NHL.

An internationally recognized researcher, coach, and educator, Mike has the unique distinction of attending all three US Olympic Training Centers as an athlete, sport scientist, and coach.

He has degrees in exercise physiology, coaching science, and biomechanics – not to mention his prowess publishing multiple peer-reviewed journal articles.

This conversation focuses on strength training for runners and how to think more productively about certain types of strength workouts and whether or not machines are appropriate for runners.

Feb 28, 2019

Running nutrition can be confusing.

To begin with, there’s your day-to-day diet. The debates will forever rage on in running circles on how to fuel your training, from keto to high carb to whole 30 and everything in between.

At the end of the day, simple whole foods are your best bet, not following specific, restrictive rules on quantity and substance.

On top of that, there’s a general sense that running means you need “extras” in your diet. Extra iron, extra protein, extra…. fill in the blank.

Runners frequently turn to supplements to satisfy these “needs.” There are thousands of articles and blog posts, not to mention advertising, dedicated to convincing you that as a runner, you need to add specific nutrients to your diet.

This episode discusses what's needed (and what you can skip) and how to dial in your nutrition for better running performance.

Feb 19, 2019

Beth Skwarecki is the author of two books and the Health Editor of Lifehacker. She's here to dispel fitness and health myths that might be leading us astray.

Beth is a member of the National Association of Science Writers and the Association of Health Care Journalists. After getting a BA in biology from Alfred University, she received her Master's in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology from Rutger's University.

She also has previously taught nutrition and environmental sciences at the Community College of Allegheny County.

Her two books will interest the science nerds out there:

This conversation focuses on the many side aspects of a healthy lifestyle that make running easier.

After all, it's critical to have a lifestyle that supports running. You can't train well if you barely sleep and drink a lot...

We're talking about:

  • DNA trivia for runners
  • How her job has changed her outlook on health and fitness
  • How to engineer a less groggy morning (for the morning runners out there!)
  • Whether elderberry supplements are a waste of money

Beth and I also discuss running in the dark, the cutoff point for running in extreme cold, and the warning signs of frostbite.

Feb 14, 2019

Lindsey has always been a runner. She ran cross country in high school and after running for fitness and health in college, started running marathons post-collegiately.

To date, she's run 14 marathons and is currently preparing for the 2019 Boston Marathon. She's also a RRCA-certified running coach.

Her podcast is one of the most popular running podcasts out there: I'll Have Another with Lindsey Hein has more than 160 episodes and features the most talented runners on the planet:

Lindsey is in a unique situation after being able to explore the training, lives, mindsets, and careers of so many world-class athletes. I couldn't help but have so many questions:

  • How do we relate to elite runners who have physical gifts that we simply do not?
  • What separates the best from the rest of us?
  • How do we learn from these runners to enhance our own training?

In our latest episode for the Strength Running Podcast, we discuss the drawbacks and opportunities of interviewing elite runners, mindset shifts related to running when you start having kids, and a lot more.

Feb 4, 2019

Recovery means much more than what you do - it's also about what you don't do.

For example, many runners think foam rolling or taking an ice bath are effective recovery methods. And if you enjoy them, I won't argue! But what you're not doing is equally important:

  • Are you using your day off from running to do your own taxes and run 34 errands?
  • Did you plan your big (i.e., stressful) family vacation for your post-marathon recovery week?
  • Do you stay out late enjoying one or several too many adult beverages?

If the answer is yes, then it almost doesn't matter what you do for your post workout recovery.

Because the addition of stress - whether physical or mental - derails our best recovery efforts. That's why when I was in college, our track coach was very understanding of poor workout splits during mid-terms. You simply can't perform physically and mentally at a high level for very long.

We previously discussed a hierarchy of injury prevention strategies and how some tactics are far more effective than others. The same is true for recovery strategies.

I want you to understand the best, most productive, and effective ways to recover from your hardest workouts.

And I'm thrilled to present you with today's podcast episode with Ms Christie Aschwanden.

Christie is the lead science writer for FiveThirtyEight and a former health columnist for the Washington Post. She's also a finalist for the National Magazine Award and her work has been featured in DiscoverSmithsonian, and O, The Oprah Magazine.

A fellow Coloradan like myself, Christie was a high school state champion in the 1,6000m run, a national collegiate cycling champion, and an elite cross-country skier with Team Rossignol.

Her new book is Good to Go: What The Athlete in All of Us Can Learn From the Strange Science of Recovery.

She's on the podcast to discuss individual post workout recovery strategies but also the bigger questions:

  • How do we know if we're fooling ourselves that something is working (when it isn't)?
  • Why isn't it enough to simply ask, "Does this recovery method work?"
  • Overall, have we made recovery too complicated?
  • How do you prioritize mental recovery?
  • If you were to speak to the entire Olympic Team about recovery, what would you say?

This episode is an excerpt of my full conversation with Christie for the Team Strength Running group coaching program.

Jan 28, 2019

Last week, I had the pleasure of spending an hour talking to Sarah Canney. She's a Road Runners Club of America and USA Track and Field certified running coach in addition to being a competitive mountain runner and member of the 2018 US National Snowshoe Running Team.

In fact, she recently placed 9th at the World Championships in Val di Non, Italy on January 5th.

Now, I've never gone snowshoe running. I don't own any snowshoes. Frankly, I don't even like the cold.

But after hearing Sarah speak more about the sport and how fun it can be, it's something I'm dying to try (and you can't get a better snowshoe running venue than Colorado's Front Range!)

And while snowshoe running might be a lot of fun, it can also be an extraordinarily helpful method of cross-training:

  • There's less impact running slower on snow (and less injury risk)
  • It's incredibly specific to running (in fact, it is running)
  • Because it's more difficult than running on the road, less time is needed for a great workout

The more and more I think about this sport, the more that I think runners need to try it!

In this episode, we talk everything snowshoe running:

  • How it's very similar to cross country
  • The gear and equipment required for success
  • The training: how is it different from running?
  • What you need to know before getting started
  • How difficult it can be and how that relates to pace and effort

We also discuss her running retreat Rise. Run. Retreat. for women and how she's making a big impact in the world of women's running.

Jan 10, 2019

Megan Roche is a professional runner for HOKA ONE ONE and the 2016 USA Track & Field Trail Runner of the Year at the ultra and sub-ultra distances.

A five-time national champion, she’s also the North American Mountain Running Champion and a six-time member of Team USA.

Her new book The Happy Runner: Love the Process, Get Faster, Run Longer was written with her husband David Roche (also an elite runner who contributed to our Little Black Book of Recovery & Prevention) and presents a unique and compelling view of how to excel as a distance runner.

In it, she discusses a wide range of fascinating topics for runners:

  • The difference between hard and fast – and when to prioritize each
  • How to define “the process”
  • Why kindness can help you become a better runner

And of course, Megan and David cover the training side of things with a focus on how to get the most out of your body.

In this podcast conversation, Megan and I talk about:

  • Can positivity make you a more robust runner?
  • Does running make people more optimistic?
  • Why is running “meaningless?”
  • How her medical degree has impacted her training
  • A lot more…
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